NOTE: THIS IS AN UNOFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT TAKEN FROM PRESS CONFERENCE AUDIO
Michael Paulson, The New York Times: Can I ask you to clarify something you said in regard to the relevance question? You brought up the subject of same sex marriage, and I wasn’t sure what you were saying. You’re now operating in New York and California where same sex marriage is legal. Can your pastors preside at same-sex marriages?
Brian Houston, Senior pastor of Hillsong Church: It can be challenging for churches to stay relevant. Because many mainstream churches upheld what they would believe is the long established view of what the Bible says about homosexuality. But the world has changed around and about them. On the subject, I always feel like there’s three things. There’s the world we live in, there’s the weight we live with, and there’s the word we live by. The world, the weight, and the word.
And to me, the world we live in, whether we like it or not is changing around and about us. Homosexual marriage is legal in [New York City] and will be probably in most Western world countries within a short time. So the world’s changing and we want to stay relevant as a church. So that’s a vexing thing. You think, “How do we not become a pariah?” So that’s the world we live in.
Then the weight we live with is the reality that in churches like ours and virtually any other church, there are young people who have serious questions about their sexuality. And who maybe, hypothetically speak to a youth pastor and says, “I think, you know, I’m gay.” And maybe they feel a sense of rejection there. Or maybe even their own Christian parents can’t handle it and exclude them at the time when they are most vulnerable in their life.
So you can have churches—not just our church, but churches—young people who are literally are depressed, maybe even suicidal and, sadly, often times grow up to hate the church because they feel that the church rejected them. So there’s the world we live in, the weight we live with, and then the word we live by.
The word we live by is what the Bible says. And it would be much easier if you could feel like all of those three just easily lined up. But they don’t necessarily. And that’s what Carl [Lentz] always says for us, it’s a conversation. For us, it’s easy to reduce what you think about homosexuality to just a public statement. And that would keep a lot of people happy. But we feel at this point, it is an ongoing conversation, that the real issues in people’s lives are too important for us to just reduce it down to a “yes” or “no” answer in a media outlet.
So we’re on the journey with it, aren’t we?Source
Josh's Pastor, Carl Lentz, weighs in:
Carl Lentz, pastor of Hillsong’s New York City location, made similar statements on CNN in June, saying Hillsong in New York City has “a lot of gay men and women” and he hopes it stays that way. But he declines to address the matter in public because, in part, Jesus never did.
“Jesus was in the thick of an era where homosexuality, just like it is today, was widely prevalent,” Lentz told CNN. “And I’m still waiting for someone to show me the quote where Jesus addressed it on the record in front of people. You won’t find it because he never did.”
Lentz’s wife, Laura, chimed in: “It’s not our place to tell anyone how they should live. That’s their journey.
SourceWhich seem to agree with the testimony of Josh Canfield, seen in this twitter post from him:
We’re writing this post in response to so many of you who have kindly reached out. You’ve been wondering why we have been getting so many hateful comments on all of our social media in the past week, in which some of you have been tagged or engaged.So for the past eight years, Josh Canfield has been in a conversation with his pastors, who have stated that "Hillsong in New York City has “a lot of gay men and women” and he hopes it stays that way." The Pastor's wife argues “It’s not our place to tell anyone how they should live. That’s their journey".
The drama that is unfolding at the moment all revolves around the fact that we have been heavily involved in our church, Hillsong NYC. Josh has been with Hillsong for eight years in a variety of ways: choir director, vocal director, and worship team. I've been there since the beginning of our relationship, over three years ago, and eventually began singing in the choir and opening my apartment as the gathering place for a connect group for Hillsong members in the Broadway and theatrical communities.
We have been open and forthright about our relationship from the get-go.Due to our openness and very public appearance together on CBC’s “Survivor”, we have been in conversation with Hillsong NYC's lead pastors regarding the church's non-LGBT affirming stance. Hillsong has many campuses around the world, many in places where gay marriage is now legal, so this has been an ongoing dialogue trying to figure out how and where we, as part of the LGBT community, fit in. As a church family, we have been wading through these uncharted waters of shifting culture and social change.
This is in opposition to scripture. A hate crime is being committed at Hillsong.
And it is not the only 'church' in which hate crimes are being committed in the name of relevance in a changing culture. Both my wife and I have personally experienced similar hate crimes in churches that we used to attend. We were personally and directly offended and affected by the lifestyle sins of others, and both of our (separate) pastors stated, as Laura Lentz stated above, "Its not our place to tell anyone how they should live. Thats their journey."
It is clear that though Brian Houston has stated recently that he agrees with the teachings of the Apostle Paul that he and Pastor Lentz disagree with the ecclesiology of the Apostle Paul:
1 Corinthians 5: 9-13 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you"
1. The Hate Crime that the Hillsong Church is committing is towards God Himself: This is called blasphemy. It is saying something about God, or Jesus, that is simply not true. When you affirm that someone is a Christian (bears the name of brother) by allowing a 'conversation' (translation: keep coming to church while we figure out if XYZ is sin or not) or when you refuse to judge someone in your church who is living an unrepentant and immoral lifestyle, you are blaspheming God- as are they by calling themselves Christians while they continue to live in unrepentant lifestyle. And this is not just about homosexuals- it is all sexual immorality (adultery, fornication)- as well as greedy people, idolaters, swindlers, drunkards- if these things mark the lifestyle of a person who calls themselves a Christian they are blaspheming God. If the church refuses to deal with it directly, they are also blaspheming God.
2. The second hate crime is refusing to judge those who are in the body. Paul commands that we are not to judge or treat outsiders in this way, but those who are in the Church who are being immoral we are to judge, because it is a loving thing to do! It is loving to the sinner, for the hope of church discipline is that they will repent (Vs 5). It is also loving to the church as a whole for a little leaven - a little impurity- affects the whole body (Vs 6). So the disease of sin spreads, and weakens the entire body.
3. The third hate crime is against scripture itself: Brian Houston equates the world- culture- and the weight- the impact of how we deal with people- to the gravity and importance of scripture (the Word). In the church, the Word stands supreme as the unchanging standard. The culture shifts, the way people respond and feel shifts, but the Word of God stands firm. The church is a unique place in the world. By the nature of the church we are counter-cultural. We are not called to "stay relevant"- to compromise with the world system, we are called to be different (sanctified, set apart, holy 1 Peter 1:15-17, 2:9-12) because we are the Bride of Christ. The harshest penalties for God's people in the Old Testament is when they played the whore/adulteress with the cultures around them (God's words, not mine). The same is true with the Bride of Christ. We are called to be holy, separate, and unique. We are not to love the world (system of values opposed to Christ) or the things in the world (1 John 2:15).
4. The fourth Hate Crime is against the sinner who is fooled into thinking he/she can still be a Christian and live in unrepentant sin. let us look at 1 Corinthians 6:9-10:
3. The third hate crime is against scripture itself: Brian Houston equates the world- culture- and the weight- the impact of how we deal with people- to the gravity and importance of scripture (the Word). In the church, the Word stands supreme as the unchanging standard. The culture shifts, the way people respond and feel shifts, but the Word of God stands firm. The church is a unique place in the world. By the nature of the church we are counter-cultural. We are not called to "stay relevant"- to compromise with the world system, we are called to be different (sanctified, set apart, holy 1 Peter 1:15-17, 2:9-12) because we are the Bride of Christ. The harshest penalties for God's people in the Old Testament is when they played the whore/adulteress with the cultures around them (God's words, not mine). The same is true with the Bride of Christ. We are called to be holy, separate, and unique. We are not to love the world (system of values opposed to Christ) or the things in the world (1 John 2:15).
4. The fourth Hate Crime is against the sinner who is fooled into thinking he/she can still be a Christian and live in unrepentant sin. let us look at 1 Corinthians 6:9-10:
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
When we try and compromise, and refuse to tell the truth as Pastors and ministers, we are shirking our sacred responsibility. We are joining hands with the deceiver. It is as though Carl Lentz and Brian Houston are saying "go ahead and be deceived for a while while we decide from the world and the weight whether God's Word has changed". In essence, Pastor Houston and Lentz and any other minister who refuses to warn people who are in their flocks are keeping them from the good news of the Gospel. It is not a conversation, or a negotiation- God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30) and obey the Gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8). Obedience is a result of repentance and belief in Jesus. Obedience flows out of a heart that is grateful and filled with the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 6 continues with the good news result of the Gospel:
Now let us consider how Paul, using scripture, might have written this statement:
God's Word is clear on the sin of homosexuality (as well as all other sexual sins). Let us make something quite clear: If you are in a lifestyle of sin- any sin, our position is clear: We will confront you privately, remove you from ministry immediately, and observe you consistently before you are restored. The scripture is clear on the fact that we are to judge those within our fellowship. This is for the glory of God and the benefit of the other members. The members in question are on a journey in rebellion against God. It is the role of the church to shine the light of the Gospel on them and command them to repent- that is to turn from the journey they are on and turn to Christ. We will do so with grace and compassion so that we will not fall into sin ourselves. If they will repent, we will restore them. If they repent not, they will be on the outside looking in.
The two men in question are still singing at the church, and encouraging their gay friends to remain and participate at Hillsong church. This is a tragedy, for clearly, there is not enough preaching the whole counsel of God that these men will feel uncomfortable and perhaps repent of their particular lifestyle sin. I suspect there are many greedy, swindlers, drunkards, and liars that feel very comfortable that their sin will remain hidden and blessed by their church.
11And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
It is the good news: We used to be that way, but when we repent and obey/believe the Gospel, we are washed clean of our sin, set apart for holy use, as we are declared NOT GUILTY of all the things we have done. We are also given the power of the Holy Spirit who indwells and empowers our new character and nature (2 Corinthians 5:17, Ephesians 2:10) so that we are no longer enslaved and controlled by sin.
Before that can happen, however, we need to quit having conversations about what sin is and is not, and just put ourselves under the authority of the Word of God. However, too many churches have decided to fear man (this is where compromise and conversation come in) instead of God. Many modern mega churches have put their trust in the methodologies and methods of man to grow their churches (Hillsong is one of many). While this could be an amazing platform to proclaim the truth of the Gospel, the same methods produce the fear that if you don't compromise, or if you do proclaim the Word of God as written, you will lose members. The fear of man causes us to make small, incremental compromises with culture which soon leaven the entire lump, and at that point, they are no longer a Christian church.
How do you fix this?
- Stand on the Word of God: When it comes to the Church, the Word of God is the only standard of faith and practice. We do not have to deal with the World, for we are not of the World. We do not have to deal with weight; for God will deal with those that are outside the church (and God the Holy Spirit is already doing His work on them).
- Practice church discipline: When someone is living a lifestyle that belies the fact that they are a Christian or behaving in a manner which brings dishonor to Christ, we are called to confront them, and if they will not repent, put them out of our fellowship. It is with the hope that they will be restored.
- Preach the Whole Counsel of God: Do not cherry pick various verses to support your theology (belief about God) but rather preach the whole counsel of God, which includes themes like sin, hell, judgment, wrath- as well as repentance, Gospel, regeneration (being Born Again) forgiveness and grace.
- Proclaim the Gospel: That man is dead in sin (Ephesians 2:1-3) but that God is rich in mercy (Ephesians 2:4) and sent his Son Jesus to live a perfect, sinless life, die a sinners death, and be resurrected on the third day (1 Corinthians 15) so that we may be born again (John 3:3, 5, 16-17) if we will repent (turn from our sins, turn to Christ) (Mark 1:15) and place our entire trust in Christ we can be saved (Romans 5:1, 10:9-10,2 Corinthians 5:17, 21).
Brian Houston has issued a new statement; Let us read it with the eyes of scripture:
I wish to correct reports that Hillsong church has “an openly gay couple directing a choir” at our New York City campus. Hillsong’s position on homosexuality and gay marriage has not changed and is consistent with Scripture. As I have stated previously, I believe the writings of Paul are clear on this subject. Several months ago when one of our choir directors made an unexpected public statement regarding his engagement to a man who sometimes sang in the choir, it was a complete surprise to us as well. It is my understanding that they have not been involved in an active leadership or ministry role since. That said, we still love them and acknowledge that they – like all of us – are on a journey, and our role as a church is to assist them on this journey with grace and compassion.
Now let us consider how Paul, using scripture, might have written this statement:
God's Word is clear on the sin of homosexuality (as well as all other sexual sins). Let us make something quite clear: If you are in a lifestyle of sin- any sin, our position is clear: We will confront you privately, remove you from ministry immediately, and observe you consistently before you are restored. The scripture is clear on the fact that we are to judge those within our fellowship. This is for the glory of God and the benefit of the other members. The members in question are on a journey in rebellion against God. It is the role of the church to shine the light of the Gospel on them and command them to repent- that is to turn from the journey they are on and turn to Christ. We will do so with grace and compassion so that we will not fall into sin ourselves. If they will repent, we will restore them. If they repent not, they will be on the outside looking in.
The two men in question are still singing at the church, and encouraging their gay friends to remain and participate at Hillsong church. This is a tragedy, for clearly, there is not enough preaching the whole counsel of God that these men will feel uncomfortable and perhaps repent of their particular lifestyle sin. I suspect there are many greedy, swindlers, drunkards, and liars that feel very comfortable that their sin will remain hidden and blessed by their church.
